From rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu Wed May 31 12:22:33 1995
Things for y'all to think about prior to dinner today (although I agree with Mike that no Council business should occur once we're sitting down to play--at least not until Alanus gets back and so do John and Doug):
Bill, I like your history of the Count, Vasha, and Giovanni. However, I feel very queasy about ole Vatic turning the Rock into a Hermetic covenant from Day One. THE ORDER HAS BEEN DESTROYED. THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PLOT ELEMENTS IN MIKE'S SAGA. Why then do we all want to run away from it and pretend it never happened? Sure, first Vatic and then his son don't want it to be true, want to rebuild the Order as soon as possible. But is it really true that everyone else wants that as well? Tariq was a Hermetic magus, but spent much of his post Gauntlet time living far away from the Order (although, John, feel free to amend this). Elijah is a Quabbalist, so his Hermetic ties will be tenuous. Cain destroyed his entire covenant--he may like the security the Order and the Code give him to study, but shouldn't he also be deathly afraid that a resurgent Order will find out what he's done and Wizard's March him? Paul so far only cares about security for his studies; Asid is more interested in mundane politics; and Alanus's hedge wizard flaw means that his Hermetic training is less than complete. So that leaves Vasha as the one wizard with a fully Hermetic, fully-involved background and nothing to hide. Sure, I can see him showing up at the Rock and wigging out when his Quaesitor wannabe eyes see the sorry shape of Hermetic affairs there. But this Hermetic stuff should not happen until it happens IC and through RP.
Granted, a lot of this depends on what John says about Tariq (would he have fought a Certamen to save Lidja? how Hermetic is he?), but it's also a Troupe decision.
I feel very strongly about all this retconning of "neat" Order of Hermes stuff to make up for the fact that Bill wasn't here at the start of the Saga and that we didn't have a copy of OoH--I don't like it. There's been a little too much individual initiative on everyone's part (including my own). The Rock was created as a refuge from the Destruction of the Order, from the loss of security--until Vasha shows up and gives Cain an ally, until the Terginum appear, until Girard hints that there are other covenants still alive in France, the Order is for all intents dead and gone, and no one at the Rock has been played as the man of vision who will rebuild it.
In fact, I will simply state that Alanus would not have willingly entered an openly Hermetic covenant in 1324. He may be beginning to have his suspicions about just who is after him, he may just not like rules based on what Pendaran Dyfed told him about the Order. He certainly agrees with the principles of the Code, but he would never see any reason to remain a part of a dead Order (he's not a builder or a bureaucrat).
Sorry about being snarky, but that's the way I feel. I love Ars Magica not only b/c it is interesting, not only b/c y'all are great gamers and good people to hang out with, but also b/c the Troupe structure is a great way to run a game (and encourage total involvement). I dropped my AD&D game with my friends in the English and Classics dept. partially b/c the system was boring me, but also b/c everyone there pretty much let my friend Eric be the typical, totally in-charge DM. Unilateral decisions were made that affected my characters, yet I had no input in said decisions. All lot of this individualized retconning is taking the fun out of the Saga for me--b/c once again unilateral decisions are being made that force me to RP in a certain way. If push comes to shove, I will simply have Alanus and Co. leave the Concilium. Again, I hate to be that draconian, but I feel like I need to take a stand on this point. We live as a Troupe or we don't live. Now, if Alanus leaves, would I also leave? I don't know--I don't want to chuck seven months' worth of fun and friendships. But i also don't want to play in an RP environment that isn't fully Troupe-oriented again; Ars Magica has taught me that much. So, if Alanus has to leave, then I'll either create more compatible characters (assuming that a commitment to Troupe "values" and total player involvement in meta-game creative decisions is reaffirmed) or (should people be reluctant to do so) I'll say thank you and go my merry way. I'd hate to have to choose the last option, but it's preferable to staying in a situation where I feel like I have to write these posts.
So consider this my version of Mike's January ultimatum--no colorful and creative use of profanity ;-), but the same sort of heartfelt emotion.
Rob
Hey, folks. Relax, okay? No one wants to see anyone leave anything, and I think we're all perfectly capable of negotiating whatever. This is starting to vaguely sound like threats.
"THE ORDER HAS BEEN DESTROYED."
I actually have to agree with this -- I don't think the Rock should have been a fully Hermetic covenant from the start. In fact, it's well established that the Rock ISN'T a fully Hermetic covenant, period. The lack of a Charter, or, for that matter, recognized status from the Order, makes this so. It's not run like a fully Hermetic covenant. And so forth.
The theme of the Rock is basically this "refuge" thing. All the magi save Vasha are on the run from something. (Even Cain, though he wants the Order back, would rather not have it back in full power, given that he's basically on the run -- SOMEONE's going to call him to task for destroying RedCairn, if the Quaesitors ever have nothing better to do.)
As such, the Rock is loosely organized -- the magi have been, up to this point, virtually Tariq's guests. "Covenant" is almost the wrong word for it.
However, I think your fears are misplaced, Rob -- I don't see anything in the Vatic stuff which MAKES the Rock a Hermetic covenant. The only question is whether or not Tariq actually has a claim to the Rock over Marius.
"Why then do we all want to run away from it and pretend it never happened?"
I think there's an IC/OOC factor involved here, and some retconning which resulted from getting ahold of copies of Order of Hermes, and the like.
Let me reiterate: the Concilium is definitely not a traditional Hermetic covenant. It is becoming more so, but it is in a period of transition, and the outcome is in doubt.
-- Lydia
"Sorry about being snarky, but that's the way I feel."
Rob, it was a rubber-stamp. A document to be ignored. Vatick knew full well in his heart that it probably meant nothing, and surely Tariq and Elijiah didn't care. It was an old mage's blessing on a covenant he knew he could never join. A bit of nostaglia for the old days. I meant it as a sort of "Good luck, yuongsters" gift. It can be knocked out. It can be unretconned (re-retconned? verb here?) I didn't mean to knock you guys over the head with another Hermetic retcon.
Basically, let's say this-- Vatick never wrote it. But when the Terginium asks for proof that the Consilium is the last Hermetic covenant officially, Vasha will forge his father's handwriting and come up with a "Donation of Constantine" like document proving a Quaesitor did declare it a covenant.
That's the end of the nice letter.
Rob, you have done something that I didn't want to see happen, and hasn't happened to me since the Great Paradigm Debate. You made me angry enough to flame you. I hate flaming people, but sometimes it's the only way to get across how you feel when you feel really pissed off.
FLAME ON
As for being snarky-- I think you're getting way way way too sensitive. We want to make sure you have a say in the troupe. But I want my say too. And it's unfair to say nothing, wait for me to do the work of coming up with something, and then reject it. Tell me what you want. Or come up with something yourself. I will never say "This is a fact from now on." I always ask for Troupe approval of any history I write. I asked in that very note.
You are being draconian here. You aren't letting us write history at all without you popping up and screaming we're trying to slip horrors past you. Every time I try to clear something up with a history, I get threats that you're going to leave. Look, we need a Charter. To get the Charter, everybody needs to make suggestions. I make them. They are suggestions. They can be altered-- in fact, I haven't made a decision so far that hasn't been altered. But I'm going to express my opinion of how I think things should be. That's how you know my opinion. How do I get to know yours? You post. This is how it should be.
Rob, Paul-- here is my ultimatum: Write something. Make a suggestion for how the Charter should read. Speak. Don't just sit here and complain that the covenant is coming out one sided because only Lydia and Bill are writing, and they aren't listening to you. Because we are.
We tried to come up with a definition of service that would work, and be not completely arbitrary. Yes, we fit it rather artifically to a game mechanic, rather than a truly paradigm measurement. But it really seemed to be the only way that we could do it-- sometimes you just have to use the mechanics.
Instead, all I've gotten from you is that it doesn't work. Well, fine. Tell me what will. Your turn to speak, to do work to come up with something that's fair, and will get the covenant strengthened without only two magi doing the serious work, losing the seasons. You figure out how to please both Vasha and Asid.
FLAME OFF
God, I hope that never happens again. I apologize.
Bill